?Transgenic population?

[randomstasis.livejournal.com]

I don't know anywhere else to post this question, so please forgive and delete if it doesn't belong here, mods!

Does anybody know what the population of Terminal City was supposed to be, circa Freak Nation? Or even earlier- I don't recall if it was ever specified in canon, but I know some kind of numbers were implied at some point. (An issue has come up with feeding them in a fic, and I'd like to have ballpark numbers straight at least) Something makes me want to say about 200?

Comments

[antrazi.livejournal.com]

There was never really anything said in numbers. Perhaps an estimate of people of the confrontation scene with the police in Terminal City would give an idea

[randomstasis.livejournal.com]

yeah, that's what I thought, too- didn't stop me hoping, though! The crowd shots don't resolve into numbers for me- could be anything from a hundred to over a thousand! I'm trying to guess based on units of x5's mentioned, and numbers in units, decimated of course, and then projecting on to the other series and specials.
in other words, I have zero confidence in what I'm thinking, and I keep wondering, didn't they ever talk about wounded/mobile, refugees coming in, logistics and transportation, or even how outnumbered they were- anything? sigh.

[aertyn87.livejournal.com]

Have you read the books? They got into a little more detail in terms of Terminal City in the set-up.

[randomstasis.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the books-are any available to look at online?
Failing that, what do you think about the 200 figure- way off base, or not unthinkable?

[voldy06.livejournal.com]

200 seems a bit low given the size of Terminal City. TC seemed like it could house well over 1000 people and that quite a bit of it was occupied by the transgenics.

[randomstasis.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the very late reply, and thanks!
I do agree TC *could* hold many more, and eventually might, but I'm going to keep to a lower number on the assumption that not all the survivors have even migrated in yet. I'll raise my ballpark numbers a little,though, I want this to be believable.
this discussion has really helped a lot with that, so thanks again.

[dollarformyname.livejournal.com]

Argh! I was trying to look up the all the info that Alec site--X5-494: Genetically Empowered--had about the units and series to calculate things, but it's goooone. ;_:

Some tidbits I got from skimming the first couple chapters of Skin Game, which may or may not be helpful--

Recounting the standoff with the cops in T.C. right at the end of Freak Nation: ...over one hundred of them had the officers in their crosshairs.

A newscaster the morning after Freak Nation reports that several hundred transgenics remain barricaded inside the restricted area.

Over a hundred implies anything between 100 & 200, yes? But that was just the number of transgenics with guns. And I think this particular instance of several hundred should be taken with a grain of salt. I mean, it's not like the media is never guilty of hyperbole, right?. :P Also, IIRC, in this book, they mention wanting to help and/or smuggle in the transgenics stuck outside T.C.? So. It's hard to say because you could try to calculate how many transgenics-per-unit and units-per-series, etc. to figure out how many transgenics existed in the first place, but then it gets all screwy when you try to guess how many transgenics actually escaped Manticore vs. how many died in the fire/were killed by White and other haters, how many fled Seattle altogether instead of heading to T.C., and how many might have trickled in/out later.

Anything nearing a thousand is a little much, I think. Especially considering the above factors. Just because T.C. could hold a lot of people doesn't mean that there has to be that many people occupying it. They seemed to cluster in certain areas, which may have given the appearance that there were a lot of them, but weren't necessarily clogging up the whole city. In fact, when they went scrounging for supplies and were sneaking around the place in some eps (and in parts of the books), huge sections looked (or were described as) pretty deserted. (FYI: this book can't seem to actually decide on the size of Terminal City, anyway, saying it's ten square blocks of biochemical wasteland on one page, and twenty square blocks on another. :/)

But yeah. For what it's worth, I'd guess anywhere from 200 to 500? Though I think 500 is pushing it. I can try to look more closely at this and the other books later on, if you still need it.

[vilnolin.livejournal.com]

'several hundred' is 3 to 9 hundred (300-900). Couple hundred is 200. also, the books are not technically cannon, and the writer didn't take into account any of the backstory from the series (if i remember correctly, he discarded visual canon for his own story--there were over 200 extras in that scene and the shots are doubled because you do NOT want to be wrangling that many people into makeup and wardrobe unless you're peter jackson).

i'm a stickler on this because the populations in the books shift drastically from one to the other, and ignores the fact that Max's original unit had 14 members (2 died and one refused to escape), and that he made a 15th unit member. manticore flashbacks in the show hinted at at least 5 or 6 units--plus the arizona unit which is the X5Rs.

another thing: if you look at the area of Seattle actually bound off as TC (on that site, not that it's helpful now), it's HUGE. several city blocks deep. it could hold (based off the current population of seattle) several thousand people. maybe even into the 10,000 range. if it were nyc, it would be well over 10,000.


...and this is why my fics take so long: i research. i research shit that never gets into my stories. i'm a really, really big nerd. research? yes please!

[randomstasis.livejournal.com]

I know! research is too much fun, writing it up isn't nearly as appealing most days.

[randomstasis.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for looking that up and getting back to me! I kind of just bracketed it and moved on, since Nano was coming up too, and then RL happened, so I never got back here to acknowlege this. It will be helpful, once I have the mental enerrgy to care write again. (Trying to sort out my dad's estate- god do I wish I could just dive into this and wall it all away once in a while, but I don't have the discipline to truly compartmentalize, I guess. Instead, I obsess)

I do think this all sounds very feasible, and I'll probably run with those assumptions. It'll be a little more complicated than my first thoughts, but that could be fun too. Lizard men and giant pots of bubbling porridge, lol!

[dollarformyname.livejournal.com]

No problem! Glad I could help in some way.

Ack, I'm so sorry RL is treating you poorly! If there's anything I can do to cheer you up in any way, let me know. <333

[vilnolin.livejournal.com]

i have the site genetically empowered printed out. the x5s alone had like 5 batches of 50+ soldiers (created, don't know how many survived to adulthood). Assume similar figures for all the Xs (minus the 1-3s, as most of the X2s and 3s are dead and all the x1s were destroyed). they probably made less transhumans.

an optimistic (as in they can actually continue as a species/sub species) is at least 1500, ranging towards 3000 with the majority being X6s and X8s (assuming cross breeding between the different manticore subspecies. if say xs can only breed with xs, than the population would have to be closer to 5-6000 total, and the transhumans face extinction in two generations).

a low estimate is 800 or below. and, as suggested in freak nation, there are a LOT more transhumans.

mind you, the limitations and laws put in place for having children on a film set are probably the reason there are like no X6s or 8s besides Dalton in the series finale.


...i put a lot of thought into this for a few of my fics. i also studied extinction and breeding patterns while i was studying to be a paleontologist. the numbers are still optimistic and nothing like the tv show suggested, but what can you do?

[randomstasis.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for typing that up and giving me your reasoning too! I kind of just bracketed the scene and moved on, since Nano was coming up too, and then RL happened, so I never got back here to acknowlege this, but you guys have really helped clarify my thinking for when I do get back to it.
Yeah, I've never been sanguine that a viable breeding population survived. Good thing we know X5s at least can breed with regular humans, innit? -_*

For my purposes, I think I'll run with somewhat lower numbers, on the assumption that not even all the survivors are actually in TC at the time. I think it's reasonable, since not all would show up right away when things are still so unstable. Even if most do gather there eventually, I'm sure it will be a gradual process. Especially transhumans, who, like Nomlies, wouldn't be so sure of their welcome, since they were segregated at Manticore too, and will be less likely to hear the newscasts about Freak Nation, then find travel much more dicey, and probably be even less trusting if they've been on the run in the world since Manticore went down.